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Topic: A Forum for all Seasons
moller
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A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 9, 2010, 08:53

Dear friends,


Please allow me to again emphasise that this forum is for all who visit this page and who may have something of value, interest or off the cuff to share with others. None of us are experts in this field of what it means to live a simple, decent, humane life. We may all have experiences and ideas about this, but none holds the monopoly on the information shared.


I like Shunryu Zuzuki's title of his classic little book on Zen: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind'. All of us are beginners and he refers here also to the beginner's attitude of discovering for oneself about life and living. Here we notice a kind of innocence, a purity of heart and mind, and an implied longing for something we may intuit exists for us, but to which many of us have not yet connected or become attuned.


So please feel free to share your beginner's mind with us. I have written a book about these thing simply because I feel that I have stumbled upon valuable and transcending insights and experiences which I try to share with others. This makes me no expert, just one voice amongst many sincere folks who are earnest seekers after a life freed from bondage.


Let your voice become part of a growing community of such sincere folks where we could re-discover a sense of human dignity and order, founded on nothing but our own innate human potential.


moller
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Posts: 68

Reputation: 0
Re: A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 13, 2010, 16:02

Quote from toombaru on December 9, 2010, 15:52


Quote from moller on December 9, 2010, 08:53

Dear friends,


Please allow me to again emphasise that this forum is for all who visit this page and who may have something of value, interest or off the cuff to share with others. None of us are experts in this field of what it means to live a simple, decent, humane life. We may all have experiences and ideas about this, but none holds the monopoly on the information shared.


I like Shunryu Zuzuki's title of his classic little book on Zen: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind'. All of us are beginners and he refers here also to the beginner's attitude of discovering for oneself about life and living. Here we notice a kind of innocence, a purity of heart and mind, and an implied longing for something we may intuit exists for us, but to which many of us have not yet connected or become attuned.


So please feel free to share your beginner's mind with us. I have written a book about these thing simply because I feel that I have stumbled upon valuable and transcending insights and experiences which I try to share with others. This makes me no expert, just one voice amongst many sincere folks who are earnest seekers after a life freed from bondage.


Let your voice become part of a growing community of such sincere folks where we could re-discover a sense of human dignity and order, founded on nothing but our own innate human potential.


You ARE the trance from which you try to escape.

The attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality is who one is.

There is no door into or out of a world that exists only in the synaptic interface of the frontal cortex.


There is a perspective in which sentient-awareness embraces the limitations of the human head-trip and no longer has the desire to improve it or make it more comfortable.


This is it.


Right here.


Right now.


That baby deer.


That homeless lady standing in the rain.


That vague feeling that something's missing.


This is all there is.


And it is grand beyond all measure……….just as it is.


Moller:


There is nothing 'grand beyond all measure' in the suffering humans bring upon one another through uninspected living and self-ignorance. My concern is not to 'escape the trance or attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality who one is' as you suggest.


Your criticism on this issue is based on nothing but your own prejudice and anxious urge to promote your rather dogmatic, and uninspected notion that there is nothing to be done to relieve humanity from its own self-created suffering. And because you have not inspected life fully, and therefore have not come upon subtle, but powerful and effective ways by which such freedom may become our actuality, you are left with no other defence against your own deep suffering, but to call it 'grand beyond all measure'. Tell that to the guy who just had his guts ripped open 'beyond measure' by a stray piece of schrapnel. He may not find it so 'grand'.


I am not unaware of the dream. But I have inspected the nature of the dream sufficiently to know that the dream is not cast in stone, and although for most, inevitable, to be explored as something unnecessary added to our existence. And that which we add to our life, dear friend, can be removed. There is nothing written in the universe which dooms humankind to suffer his self-created suffering with no hope of ever becoming free from it as you suggest.


This is why I have written my book and why I believe it offers a realistic way towards waking up from the dream of self-created bondage.



Guest
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Posts: 8

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Re: A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 13, 2010, 20:37

Quote from moller on December 13, 2010, 16:02


Quote from toombaru on December 9, 2010, 15:52


Quote from moller on December 9, 2010, 08:53

Dear friends,


Please allow me to again emphasise that this forum is for all who visit this page and who may have something of value, interest or off the cuff to share with others. None of us are experts in this field of what it means to live a simple, decent, humane life. We may all have experiences and ideas about this, but none holds the monopoly on the information shared.


I like Shunryu Zuzuki's title of his classic little book on Zen: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind'. All of us are beginners and he refers here also to the beginner's attitude of discovering for oneself about life and living. Here we notice a kind of innocence, a purity of heart and mind, and an implied longing for something we may intuit exists for us, but to which many of us have not yet connected or become attuned.


So please feel free to share your beginner's mind with us. I have written a book about these thing simply because I feel that I have stumbled upon valuable and transcending insights and experiences which I try to share with others. This makes me no expert, just one voice amongst many sincere folks who are earnest seekers after a life freed from bondage.


Let your voice become part of a growing community of such sincere folks where we could re-discover a sense of human dignity and order, founded on nothing but our own innate human potential.


You ARE the trance from which you try to escape.

The attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality is who one is.

There is no door into or out of a world that exists only in the synaptic interface of the frontal cortex.


There is a perspective in which sentient-awareness embraces the limitations of the human head-trip and no longer has the desire to improve it or make it more comfortable.


This is it.


Right here.


Right now.


That baby deer.


That homeless lady standing in the rain.


That vague feeling that something's missing.


This is all there is.


And it is grand beyond all measure……….just as it is.


Moller:


There is nothing 'grand beyond all measure' in the suffering humans bring upon one another through uninspected living and self-ignorance. My concern is not to 'escape the trance or attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality who one is' as you suggest.


Your criticism on this issue is based on nothing but your own prejudice and anxious urge to promote your rather dogmatic, and uninspected notion that there is nothing to be done to relieve humanity from its own self-created suffering. And because you have not inspected life fully, and therefore have not come upon subtle, but powerful and effective ways by which such freedom may become our actuality, you are left with no other defence against your own deep suffering, but to call it 'grand beyond all measure'. Tell that to the guy who just had his guts ripped open 'beyond measure' by a stray piece of schrapnel. He may not find it so 'grand'.


I am not unaware of the dream. But I have inspected the nature of the dream sufficiently to know that the dream is not cast in stone, and although for most, inevitable, to be explored as something unnecessary added to our existence. And that which we add to our life, dear friend, can be removed. There is nothing written in the universe which dooms humankind to suffer his self-created suffering with no hope of ever becoming free from it as you suggest.


This is why I have written my book and why I believe it offers a realistic way towards waking up from the dream of self-created bondage.




Dear Moller,


I appreciate your effort and can understand your concerns.


We are, however, approaching the "problem" from an entirely different perspective.


You want to transform the sentient awareness that you feel coursing through your synaptic interface.


I want to explore it just as it is.


You want to help others.


I want to enjoy them.


The sense of self IS the desire to manipulate the perceptual reality to its own benefit.


That along with with the inherent egoic grandiosity of all selfs leads them to believe that they can intervene in the infinite chain of causation and not only improve their personal reality but are endowed with the power to influence the entire human perspective.


It is fear and desire that motivates all of sentient life.


It is fear and desire that drives the need to transform the imagined self and its perceived others.


There many come a time when the futility of your travail will break through the dream of separation.


All of that effort……all of that deep thought….all the desire to improve something that existed only in your own imagination will begin to lose its appeal.


The idea of being in the center of a fawning circle of sycophants who ask the same few questions over and over will begin to sicken you.


No longer will the desire to hang out with the Dalai Lama and Oprah hold the reins on your life.


That funny grin on your teacher's face will turn into a smirk.


Your hands no longer will clutch a steering wheel that never was actually connected to anything.


And all your dreams of a safe and perfect world will dissolve.


One day……you will pick up your book and it will turn to ashes.


You will laugh at all your efforts to improve a conceptual overlay.


At first……it will be painful and frightening.


It is difficult and confusing to lose everything…..including everything you thought you were.


But if you stick to it and tack into the wind….you will step out into a pristine world.


You will find awareness once again…….untouched and unconstrained by its own concepts.


No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.


You will live in the Great-Unknown-Unknowable.


You will know that that is who you are.


And that is good enough.


Post Script.


All this time….I have only been speaking to my self.


moller
Administrator
Posts: 68

Reputation: 0
Re: A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 14, 2010, 06:25

Dear friends,


Please allow me to again emphasise that this forum is for all who visit this page and who may have something of value, interest or off the cuff to share with others. None of us are experts in this field of what it means to live a simple, decent, humane life. We may all have experiences and ideas about this, but none holds the monopoly on the information shared.


I like Shunryu Zuzuki's title of his classic little book on Zen: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind'. All of us are beginners and he refers here also to the beginner's attitude of discovering for oneself about life and living. Here we notice a kind of innocence, a purity of heart and mind, and an implied longing for something we may intuit exists for us, but to which many of us have not yet connected or become attuned.


So please feel free to share your beginner's mind with us. I have written a book about these thing simply because I feel that I have stumbled upon valuable and transcending insights and experiences which I try to share with others. This makes me no expert, just one voice amongst many sincere folks who are earnest seekers after a life freed from bondage.


Let your voice become part of a growing community of such sincere folks where we could re-discover a sense of human dignity and order, founded on nothing but our own innate human potential.


Fir brievety I deleted previous posts by both myself and Toombaru to this thread.


Moller said:


>>There is nothing 'grand beyond all measure' in the suffering humans bring upon one another through uninspected living and self-ignorance. My concern is not to 'escape the trance or attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality who one is' as you suggest.


Your criticism on this issue is based on nothing but your own prejudice and anxious urge to promote your rather dogmatic, and uninspected notion that there is nothing to be done to relieve humanity from its own self-created suffering. And because you have not inspected life fully, and therefore have not come upon subtle, but powerful and effective ways by which such freedom may become our actuality, you are left with no other defence against your own deep suffering, but to call it 'grand beyond all measure'. Tell that to the guy who just had his guts ripped open 'beyond measure' by a stray piece of schrapnel. He may not find it so 'grand'.


I am not unaware of the dream. But I have inspected the nature of the dream sufficiently to know that the dream is not cast in stone, and although for most, inevitable, to be explored as something unnecessary added to our existence. And that which we add to our life, dear friend, can be removed. There is nothing written in the universe which dooms humankind to suffer his self-created suffering with no hope of ever becoming free from it as you suggest.


This is why I have written my book and why I believe it offers a realistic way towards waking up from the dream of self-created bondage.>>


Dear Moller,


I appreciate your effort and can understand your concerns.


We are, however, approaching the "problem" from an entirely different perspective.


You want to transform the sentient awareness that you feel coursing through your synaptic interface.


I want to explore it just as it is.


You want to help others.


I want to enjoy them.


The sense of self IS the desire to manipulate the perceptual reality to its own benefit.


That along with with the inherent egoic grandiosity of all selfs leads them to believe that they can intervene in the infinite chain of causation and not only improve their personal reality but are endowed with the power to influence the entire human perspective.


It is fear and desire that motivates all of sentient life.


It is fear and desire that drives the need to transform the imagined self and its perceived others.


There many come a time when the futility of your travail will break through the dream of separation.


All of that effort……all of that deep thought….all the desire to improve something that existed only in your own imagination will begin to lose its appeal.


The idea of being in the center of a fawning circle of sycophants who ask the same few questions over and over will begin to sicken you.


No longer will the desire to hang out with the Dalai Lama and Oprah hold the reins on your life.


That funny grin on your teacher's face will turn into a smirk.


Your hands no longer will clutch a steering wheel that never was actually connected to anything.


And all your dreams of a safe and perfect world will dissolve.


One day……you will pick up your book and it will turn to ashes.


You will laugh at all your efforts to improve a conceptual overlay.


At first……it will be painful and frightening.


It is difficult and confusing to lose everything…..including everything you thought you were.


But if you stick to it and tack into the wind….you will step out into a pristine world.


You will find awareness once again…….untouched and unconstrained by its own concepts.


No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.


You will live in the Great-Unknown-Unknowable.


You will know that that is who you are.


And that is good enough.


Post Script.


All this time….I have only been speaking to my self.


Moller:


Yes. I was wondering to whom you were actually addressing this reply. It is not clear if you are talking to me (Moller), others out there, or yourself as you mention in the postscript.


You mention:


>>That along with with the inherent egoic grandiosity of all selfs leads them to believe that they can intervene in the infinite chain of causation and not only improve their personal reality but are endowed with the power to influence the entire human perspective>>


It is not clear what you mean by the 'infinite chain of causation'? It seems you may be referring to some kind of universal destiny which controls everything and nullifies all possibility of human-engendered change. Do you see this all-encompassing Fate as the only force in the universe dragging everything, including human life, along its path of endless self-regulated destiny? Seems a pretty grim cosmology to me. Perhaps what you suggest here is what some folks might describe as hell?


Toomaru proceeds:


>>But if you stick to it and tack into the wind….you will step out into a pristine world.


You will find awareness once again…….untouched and unconstrained by its own concepts.


No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.>>


Are you not 'telling' us here that if we tack into the wind, we will find pristine awareness? Is this not telling folks what to do? So, what happened to your sugegstion that under such circumstances :


>>No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.>>


You, the one who knows that he doesn't know, nevertheless continues to teach and share your message. Is there not some contradiction here?


My sense is that if you are true to your own understanding of shutting up in the face of your own ignorance, why keep on sharing your ideas so prolifically, as though what you have to share is the only truth about everything?


Guest
Member
Posts: 8

Reputation: 0
Re: A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 14, 2010, 18:08

Quote from moller on December 14, 2010, 06:25


Dear friends,


Please allow me to again emphasise that this forum is for all who visit this page and who may have something of value, interest or off the cuff to share with others. None of us are experts in this field of what it means to live a simple, decent, humane life. We may all have experiences and ideas about this, but none holds the monopoly on the information shared.


I like Shunryu Zuzuki's title of his classic little book on Zen: 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind'. All of us are beginners and he refers here also to the beginner's attitude of discovering for oneself about life and living. Here we notice a kind of innocence, a purity of heart and mind, and an implied longing for something we may intuit exists for us, but to which many of us have not yet connected or become attuned.


So please feel free to share your beginner's mind with us. I have written a book about these thing simply because I feel that I have stumbled upon valuable and transcending insights and experiences which I try to share with others. This makes me no expert, just one voice amongst many sincere folks who are earnest seekers after a life freed from bondage.


Let your voice become part of a growing community of such sincere folks where we could re-discover a sense of human dignity and order, founded on nothing but our own innate human potential.


Fir brievety I deleted previous posts by both myself and Toombaru to this thread.


Moller said:


>>There is nothing 'grand beyond all measure' in the suffering humans bring upon one another through uninspected living and self-ignorance. My concern is not to 'escape the trance or attempt to transcend or manipulate one's imaginary reality who one is' as you suggest.


Your criticism on this issue is based on nothing but your own prejudice and anxious urge to promote your rather dogmatic, and uninspected notion that there is nothing to be done to relieve humanity from its own self-created suffering. And because you have not inspected life fully, and therefore have not come upon subtle, but powerful and effective ways by which such freedom may become our actuality, you are left with no other defence against your own deep suffering, but to call it 'grand beyond all measure'. Tell that to the guy who just had his guts ripped open 'beyond measure' by a stray piece of schrapnel. He may not find it so 'grand'.


I am not unaware of the dream. But I have inspected the nature of the dream sufficiently to know that the dream is not cast in stone, and although for most, inevitable, to be explored as something unnecessary added to our existence. And that which we add to our life, dear friend, can be removed. There is nothing written in the universe which dooms humankind to suffer his self-created suffering with no hope of ever becoming free from it as you suggest.


This is why I have written my book and why I believe it offers a realistic way towards waking up from the dream of self-created bondage.>>


Dear Moller,


I appreciate your effort and can understand your concerns.


We are, however, approaching the "problem" from an entirely different perspective.


You want to transform the sentient awareness that you feel coursing through your synaptic interface.


I want to explore it just as it is.


You want to help others.


I want to enjoy them.


The sense of self IS the desire to manipulate the perceptual reality to its own benefit.


That along with with the inherent egoic grandiosity of all selfs leads them to believe that they can intervene in the infinite chain of causation and not only improve their personal reality but are endowed with the power to influence the entire human perspective.


It is fear and desire that motivates all of sentient life.


It is fear and desire that drives the need to transform the imagined self and its perceived others.


There many come a time when the futility of your travail will break through the dream of separation.


All of that effort……all of that deep thought….all the desire to improve something that existed only in your own imagination will begin to lose its appeal.


The idea of being in the center of a fawning circle of sycophants who ask the same few questions over and over will begin to sicken you.


No longer will the desire to hang out with the Dalai Lama and Oprah hold the reins on your life.


That funny grin on your teacher's face will turn into a smirk.


Your hands no longer will clutch a steering wheel that never was actually connected to anything.


And all your dreams of a safe and perfect world will dissolve.


One day……you will pick up your book and it will turn to ashes.


You will laugh at all your efforts to improve a conceptual overlay.


At first……it will be painful and frightening.


It is difficult and confusing to lose everything…..including everything you thought you were.


But if you stick to it and tack into the wind….you will step out into a pristine world.


You will find awareness once again…….untouched and unconstrained by its own concepts.


No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.


You will live in the Great-Unknown-Unknowable.


You will know that that is who you are.


And that is good enough.


Post Script.


All this time….I have only been speaking to my self.


Moller:


Yes. I was wondering to whom you were actually addressing this reply. It is not clear if you are talking to me (Moller), others out there, or yourself as you mention in the postscript.


You mention:


>>That along with with the inherent egoic grandiosity of all selfs leads them to believe that they can intervene in the infinite chain of causation and not only improve their personal reality but are endowed with the power to influence the entire human perspective>>


It is not clear what you mean by the 'infinite chain of causation'? It seems you may be referring to some kind of universal destiny which controls everything and nullifies all possibility of human-engendered change. Do you see this all-encompassing Fate as the only force in the universe dragging everything, including human life, along its path of endless self-regulated destiny? Seems a pretty grim cosmology to me. Perhaps what you suggest here is what some folks might describe as hell?


Toomaru proceeds:


>>But if you stick to it and tack into the wind….you will step out into a pristine world.


You will find awareness once again…….untouched and unconstrained by its own concepts.


No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.>>


Are you not 'telling' us here that if we tack into the wind, we will find pristine awareness? Is this not telling folks what to do? So, what happened to your sugegstion that under such circumstances :


>>No longer will you desire to tell others what you know……because you know that you know nothing.>>


You, the one who knows that he doesn't know, nevertheless continues to teach and share your message. Is there not some contradiction here?


My sense is that if you are true to your own understanding of shutting up in the face of your own ignorance, why keep on sharing your ideas so prolifically, as though what you have to share is the only truth about everything?


I am saying that there is no method to attain that which exists only in the imagination of an imaginary self.


I am saying that all the words of all the would be sages are but echoes in an empty chamber.


I am saying that all the egos that believe that they have attained a more expansive view of the way things are are as deluded and any other conceptual-mnemonic entity.


I am saying that the human sense of self evolved to seek happiness but not find it.


It is a hungry ghost with no mouth.


I am saying that in a dream………all signposts point only to the dream.


I am saying that you can't get there from here and to promote a method to transform one's self only adds cruelty to the fevered dream of separation.


I am saying that there is an understanding in which awareness simply observes but it can't be reached by morphing the very thing that obscures it.


It comes………or not……..and it can't be courted by a make-believe character.


Granted……this philosophy offers no hope.

It won't sell any books.

It will never attract followers.

It is the end of searching.

It it the end of the searcher.


Promote your book……..gather your following…….get back to me in ten years and let me know how many people have escaped the illusion of separation.


weallone
Member
Posts: 19

Reputation: 0
Re: A Forum for all Seasons
on: December 15, 2010, 20:08

Toombaru speaks with a depth and vastness that echoes the unnerving quality of nothing manifesting amidst our fragile ego's by pointing out the false for the false.


Just another brick in the wall

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